Aaron Holesgrove uses the time-tested technique of replying inline to shoot down Gruber’s “Why Windows 8 Is Fundamentally Flawed as a Response to the iPad“. I thought I’d do the same. I don’t agree exactly with either of these men, but the way Aaron responds makes me think he’s missing a few things.
Yeah John, Apple is the ONLY reason for all of this stuff going on in IT recently. I’m not trying to disagree for the sake of it but I would argue that Apple (and iOS) aren’t the biggest enemy of those three companies; for them, their biggest enemies have been themselves. It was predicted many years before the iPhone and its mobile operating system hit the market that all three of those companies would fall flat on their faces for their respective reasons (see here and here and here) – iOS is simply the straw that broke the camel’s back, I’m afraid. Despite its enormous and disruptive success, the Apple gets too much credit for how it affected its competitors – especially those ones.
Sure, Apple’s not the only reason the IT world is in upheavals the past few years. Windows Mobile hung out near the brink of destruction for several years and couldn’t be saved with the 6.5 coat of paint; I’m pretty sure it would have collapsed under its own weight sooner rather than later. Palm says they started designing the Palm Pré before the iPhone and I believe them. But you know what Android phones looked before the iPhone? More or less like a BlackBerry or a Motorola Q. That’s what smartphones were.
Actually John, iOS IS built on top of Mac OS X and its core principles. It is common knowledge that it is a modified version of OS X with a touch centric shell on top.
iOS is built on top of Darwin, and has a bunch of programming frameworks from Mac OS X. That’s it. There’s no way to “get back to Mac OS X”, there’s no Mac OS X window server, there’s no AppKit and no Carbon (the two frameworks available for running apps with the Mac OS X interface), there’s no TextEdit, Dock, Desktop or menu bar, there’s no System Preferences, there’s no visible user accounts, there’s no Dashboard, there’s no Exposé, there’s no Software Update, there’s no Finder.
Maybe it is “common knowledge” that it’s a “touch centric shell on top”. Maybe people who care enough to believe a little bit about this think that’s what’s going on. That’s like saying a rally car is like a fully featured Honda Accord with a racing layer on top. iOS is as much an extra layer on top of Mac OS X as Windows Phone 7 is an extra layer on top of Windows 7. It’s not an extra “layer on top” if you toss out nearly everything except some of the innards and replace the layers you threw out with new technology.
Microsoft’s demo video shows Excel — the full version of Excel for Windows — running alongside new touch-based apps. They can make buttons more “touch friendly” all they want, but they’ll never make Excel for Windows feel right on a touchscreen UI.
John, I don’t know what has you so convinced that Office has to look different in order to qualify that it belongs on a tablet. The ribbon interface was supposed to introduce bigger buttons along the top so that menu options were easier to find and I think a lot of users don’t want to re-learn how to navigate Office all over again – they just want it pretty much the way it is on the devices they want to use.
I’m a fan of the Ribbon and some of its features help in making the interface easier to use from a tablet. But it’s nothing like adapting a program for a tablet. If the Ribbon was truly supposed to introduce bigger buttons so that they’d be easier to tap, some of the core formatting buttons would be larger. The button for bold and the drop down list for font size are pretty much their old size from Office 2003 when in the Ribbon. The Ribbon includes many features that are dependent on a cursor, like live preview of styles in galleries as you hover and the disappearing mini-toolbar on selection, which disappears based on the cursor distance. Some Ribbon features incidentally make it easier for everyone to hit buttons, but it’s hard to mistake this for tablet-specificity.
The Office apps aren’t different from any other app; they don’t have to look different per se, they have to work differently. There’s basics: they have to accommodate a touch keyboard gracefully and move the content out of the way automatically. They can’t rely on right-clicking. They have to present the options available in a fraction of the screen space. They should embrace the ability for direct manipulation and multi-touch since people will come to expect it. Excel in particular will need work to differentiate between scrolling, moving cells and changing the selection. Without a shift key available all the time, how do you select a cell range spanning 800 rows without going nuts? Moving to the Ribbon has saved Microsoft numerous headaches in preparing for this work (imagine having all those Office 2003 toolbars with rows of 16×16 icons to hit now), but there’s work to be done.
Now, all of that aside, I think the reason why we saw a full version of Excel in that video demo is because there is no way Microsoft would have demo’d Office 15 today as well – and from the screenshots leaked so far, it looks like Office is getting the Metro makeover too so your argument is moot.
This is actually a good point. I’ve been worrying about the rough break between Windows 7 and Windows 8 though, since not everyone’s going to upgrade to Office 15 and not every developer is going to want to or be able to remodel their interface for Windows 8. Having an OS so clearly with two halves with significant investment in both (Windows Explorer got a Ribbon and that’s what we’ve seen so far) is going to be worrisome. Compare and contrast to Mac OS X Lion which also brings full-screen in a big way, but which keeps all the familiar concepts going. You get to learn about switching fullscreen spaces and about disappearing toolbars, and that’s it.
Consider the differences between the iWork apps for the Mac and iPad. The iPad versions aren’t “touch friendly” versions of the Mac apps — they’re entirely new beasts designed and programmed from the ground up for the touchscreen and for the different rules and tradeoffs of the iOS interface (no explicit saving, no file system, ready to quit at a moment’s notice, no processing in the background, etc.).
Now we’re comparing apples to oranges. Firstly, iWork isn’t a ‘beast’, it’s a sexed up equivalent of Google Apps – a competent, entry level productivity application suite. What neither of those applications are, though, is Microsoft Office – say all you want about Microsoft products but Office has no peers, particularly in the enterprise, and has three times the amount of features of anything else. There are no comparisons to be made here.
“Entirely new beasts” are supposed to refer to wild animals and not to intimidating, capable animals. The point is that Pages on Mac and Pages on iPad look and work very different, and for good reason. We’ve been over this by now. It has to do with a million things, but being Word’s equal on features has nothing to do with it.
Microsoft, on the other hand, are looking to make tablets that are full screen computers which you can do anything/everything with – dock them as full computers, do full-screen computing using things other than touch – off screen gestures, voice control, etc. It’s a totally different kettle of fish.
No, Microsoft are primarily looking to make sure their existing OS continues to fly off the shelves because that environment is their crown jewel. (The Xbox and Windows Phone 7 departments are also of value, but they don’t contribute nearly enough to make a dent in Microsoft’s central focus right now.) Windows 8 now looks to be a pretty good start for tablets at the expense of shoving that same experience down every single Windows owner’s throat. No one knows how that’ll shake out.
The ability to run Mac OS X apps on the iPad, with full access to the file system, peripherals, etc., would make the iPad worse, not better.
Agreed – but just because that’s true of Mac OS, that doesn’t mean that the logic auto-applies to Windows as well. Mac OS has been through a giant state of flux – Mac apps used to be written in Carbon which was an afterthought in the migration towards 64bit Intel CPU’s and now Apple are becoming more partial towards their own CPU’s and designs. That situation is a mess currently.
Wow, yeah, Mac is the platform riddled with a gigantic lack of future vision. Apple’s dance from PowerPC to 64-bit PowerPC to x86 to x64 has hurt developers, but it hasn’t largely hurt real people. Aside from wondering why Photoshop is slow or where VBA went, they’ve been mostly unharmed. Meanwhile, Windows is the platform with a dozen different directions and technologies caked into layers over the past twenty years with no telling if they’re ready to make the hard decisions in order to continue staying relevant. And I don’t mean MinWin. Untangling your components, while arduous, is the easy part. Microsoft has just proven that they can make Windows run great on tablets, but not that they can sort out if the tablet experience belongs on the desktop/laptop and vice versa or what developers should be aiming for. No matter your opinion on iPads and their capabilities, there’s at least a clear line in the sand between what a Mac is and what an iOS device is.
iOS’s lack of backward compatibility with any existing software means that all apps for iOS are written specifically for iOS.
Again, apples and oranges. This mentality works well for Apple products because basically no one could care less about them up until about five years ago.
No, this mentality works well for Apple products because it produces an alternative that is measurably different from what PCs have traditionally been. And I don’t mean in terms of file systems, I mean in terms of encouraging direct manipulation. Go look at the success the iPad’s having on learning, as an aid for autistic children or as a first computer for old people who has shied away from the traditional PCs, including Macs.
Most of these people don’t care about Apple the brand but about a different kind of user interface and even the tablet as a form of more approachable computer.
With Windows it’s different – people would expect Windows tablets to have backwards compatibility with old Windows apps because if it didn’t, they could have just settled for an iPad instead and been one of the trend-setters. Sure some apps in Windows 8 tablets will look ugly but at the end of the day, backwards compatibility with legacy Windows apps isn’t a drawback – it’s a feature, because that’s what the market will demand.
Exactly. That’s what I think will happen. But that also means that the Ribbon acting as a touch accommodation is a happy accident, like we said a few paragraphs prior.
And hey – if Windows 8 tablets are supposed to be operated only like iPads, people will have that option too – there will be a Windows 8 app store which will serve touch centric apps written in HTML5 and JavaScript.
I’m hoping they will, except that I hope Microsoft won’t completely toss their technology portfolio. (I know they won’t and I know there’s an awful lot Microsoft’s left for BUILD and won’t talk about today.)
There’s a cost for this elimination of complexity and compatibility, of course, which is that the iPad is also less capable than a Mac. That’s why Apple is developing iOS alongside Mac OS X.
Yeah and that cost is called “credibility”. Microsoft wants your tablet to be your total solution and just because Apple can’t do it, doesn’t mean that someone else can’t either – your roses colored glasses deceive you John.
Credibility? If Windows 8 for tablets is all Metro all the time, it could be a great thing, but once you are forced to swap to a second user experience, you’ve lost them, for the same reason that you’ve lost many comfortable Windows users today the moment you expect them to fall in love with running Metro side by side with classical Windows. Things just don’t change that dramatically when you’re in the middle of doing something.
Remember the Ribbon boo-hiss? Going on the currently released information about Windows 8, imagine the sound of Windows owners worldwide realizing that they have to learn about and live in two separate environments, one of which is by definition not fully intended for their computer’s shape, because of factors they don’t control. The Ribbon was mere foreplay.